This episode of Over the Edge features an interview between Matt Trifiro and Jennifer Fritzsche, Head of North American Telecom and Digital Infrastructure at Greenhill & Co. Jennifer has a career record of success in providing thought leadership, strategic vision, and business insight leading to significant business growth and shareholder value. In this episode, she talks about navigating the continually changing world of technology, what aspects of it are missed most, and what is important to consider when strategizing for your business.
This episode features an interview between Matt Trifiro and Jennifer Fritzsche, Head of North American Telecom and Digital Infrastructure at Greenhill & Co., which is a leading independent investment bank focused on providing financial advice on significant mergers, acquisitions, restructurings, financings and capital raising to corporations, partnerships, institutions and governments.
Jennifer has a career record of success in providing thought leadership, strategic vision, and business insight leading to significant business growth and shareholder value. She is considered a leading expert in the telecommunications services, cable, data center and tower sectors. Jennifer is seen as a client-focused leader who is a trusted advisor and partner to clients, investors and boards of directors.
In this episode, Jennifer talks about navigating the continually changing world of technology, what aspects of it are missed most, and what is important to consider when strategizing for your business. She shares insight on everything from the edge and the uncabling of cable, to the importance of fiber, wireless, and data centers to shared infrastructures. Jennifer also discusses her recommended strategies for access providers and cloud computing, as well as her top technology trends for 2022.
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“Fiber is really the basis of every infrastructure you need. Data centers don't work without fiber related to them. Small cells don't work without fiber related to them. Towers, you need that back haul and front piece, which is the fiber going up. So, in order to carry all this traffic that fiber is critical. The veins in your body carry the blood around. So it's important and really can't be overestimated.”
“A tower is, I think, the best model ever made, because it's such a passive infrastructure. And I always used to joke the only cost to the tower was paying the taxes and sending the guy to mow the lawn underneath because there's really no embedded costs, which is why they're what we call contribution margins or every incremental dollar of revenue, there's like a 90% fall through to the margin. It's unbelievable.”
“I think that you're really going to begin to see growth and the deployment of enterprises wanting to make a walled garden around some of their own enterprise that they don't have to rely solely on like the likes of AT&T and Verizon, but keep the networks as the name would imply private.
“What I would do if I was the carriers, is kind of exactly what they're doing. I would say I need to buy spectrum. It's pay to play. I bought it and now I have to deploy it. And the traditional wireless model is 120% penetration in wireless right now in the US, so you have to pivot to new different areas of growth, private networks, IoT, enterprise; things like that, that can really drive that touch point to enterprise.”
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02:25 Getting involved in technology
03:17 Navigating Technology
03:50 Current role at Greenhill
06:59 Millimeter Wave and the Uncabling of Cable
08:23 What is a Franchise Territory
13:05 Future of Cable
13:45 Fiber’s Role in Infrastructure
15:05 Blurring of Broadband Infrastructure Lines
18:05 Microsoft and Amazon’s Wireless Strategies
20:55 Access Providers and Data Center Business
24:05 Shared Infrastructure and Tower Territory
26:05 Edge Computing
34:22 Unlicensed Spectrum and CBRS
35:41 Private Wireless
37:25 Where Should Wireless Carriers Spend Their Money?
38:55 Best Strategy for Cloud Computing and Wireless
42:35 Spectrum and Shared Infrastructure
44:15 Top Technology Trends for 2022
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Over the Edge is brought to you by Dell Technologies to unlock the potential of your infrastructure with edge solutions. From hardware and software to data and operations, across your entire multi-cloud environment, we’re here to help you simplify your edge so you can generate more value. Learn more by visiting DellTechnologies.com/SimplifyYourEdge for more information or click on the link in the show notes.
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[00:00:00] Matt Trifiro: Hi, this is Matt host of Over the Edge, the only podcast focused on teaching you about edge computing, the grid and the future of the internet. On this show, I interview experts and practitioners with deep knowledge and expertise in digital infrastructure and the software and technologies that support it. We'll even throw in a little metaverse web three and cryptocurrency to keep it on trend.bJoin us each episode for a mind expanding romp through the vast technological and business landscape that is quickly defining our new digital worlds.
ank.
[00:00:41] Narrator 1: Jennifer has a career record of success and providing thought leadership, strategic vision, and business insight, leading to significant business growth and shareholder value. She is considered a leading expert in the telecommunications services, cable data. And tower sectors. [00:01:00] Jennifer is seen as a client focused leader, who is a trusted advisor and partner to clients, investors, and boards of directors.
[00:01:07] Narrator 1: This episode features an interview between Matt Trifiro and Jennifer Fritzsche, Head of North American Telecom and Digital Infrastructure at Greenhill & Co., a leading independent investment bank.
Jennifer has a career record of success in providing thought leadership, strategic vision, and business insight leading to significant business growth and shareholder value. She is considered a leading expert in the telecommunications services, cable, data center and tower sectors. Jennifer is seen as a client-focused leader who is a trusted advisor and partner to clients, investors and boards of directors.
In this episode, Jennifer talks about navigating the continually changing world of technology, what aspects of it are missed most, and what is important to consider when strategizing for your business. She shares insight on everything from the edge and the uncabling of cable, to the importance of fiber, wireless, and data centers to shared infrastructures. Jennifer also discusses her recommended strategies for access providers and cloud computing, as well as her top technology trends for 2022.
But before we get into it, here’s a brief word from our sponsors
[00:01:45] Narrator 2: Over the Edge is brought to you by Dell Technologies to unlock the potential of your infrastructure with edge solutions. From hardware and software to data and operations, across your entire multi-cloud environment, we’re here to help you simplify your edge so you can generate more value. Learn more by visiting Dell.com for more information or click on the link in the show notes.
[00:02:05] Narrator 1: And now, please enjoy this interview between Jennifer Fritzsche, Head of North American Telecom and Digital Infrastructure at Greenhill & Co., and your host, Matt Trifiro.
[00:02:17] Matt Trifiro: Hey Jennifer, how are you doing this
[00:02:18] Jennifer Fritzsche: morning? Good. How are you, Matt? Thanks for having.
[00:02:21] Matt Trifiro: Yeah, I'm terrific. And you know, I always like to ask people cause it's one of the most interesting questions is how did you even get involved in technology and you're coming from a business background. So I'm especially interested in that arc.
[00:02:33] Jennifer Fritzsche: Yep. No, absolutely like life, like a very weird. Serendipitous turn. I came out of business school where I studied finance and investing and everything like that in 1995 and really wanted to get into equity research. And I basically was a sales assistant and made like limo reservations for bankers and restaurant reservations and nothing that warranted an MBA.
[00:02:57] Jennifer Fritzsche: And so I kind of have [00:03:00] knocking on the door of the research analyst to give me a job and funny. I really wanted to be a retail analyst cause I love shopping and things like that. But the only opening was for the telecom analyst to be there junior. So it was just in 1997. I got that nod. And it's amazing what has happened since.
[00:03:23] Jennifer Fritzsche: So
[00:03:23] Matt Trifiro: when you were a little girl, did you take toys apart and stuff? No,
[00:03:30] Jennifer Fritzsche: not at all. Yeah. I mean, I was a history major in college, liberal arts, and again, I would veered more toward, I mean like the girly stuff again, loved shopping, loved, decorating, love, all that stuff. So to be in this kind of telecom centric world is again a very weird, strange path, but one where I feel very much.
[00:03:51] Matt Trifiro: Yeah. I grew up wanting to be a scientist or an engineer. So I definitely had that, that, but I'm not, I'm a marketer. And so coming into a field [00:04:00] where you're surrounded. A lot of technology and a lot of engineers and people that know way more than certainly that I do. How do you navigate
[00:04:09] Jennifer Fritzsche: that? What I think I'm good at is dumbing things down.
[00:04:13] Jennifer Fritzsche: You know, again, I like the story element of all this, so I'm able to one, I feel like I have a very good gut read of people, which is invaluable as an analyst and a banker, but then secondly, I'm able to kind of take all the techie stuff and. I say, okay. Explain it to me. Like I'm a three-year-old and then grapple that story to be able to repackage it to others.
[00:04:33] Jennifer Fritzsche: So it's, I mean, I'm sure there's some part of my left-handed brain that likes that, but I am able to, I think decipher it and it's just really how things work. And again, The story of everything.
[00:04:45] Matt Trifiro: Yeah. That's interesting. I mean, I, people ask me how I, I got good at what I do. And I said, I just ask a lot of dumb questions, write down the answers until I keep asking them until I understand them.
[00:04:54] Matt Trifiro: So
[00:04:55] Jennifer Fritzsche: never dumb question. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:04:57] Matt Trifiro: Because I mean, yes, if you can't understand it, then [00:05:00] the person explaining it may not actually understand it as I've discovered. What is your work now? I know you spent a long time at Wells Fargo. Well, it was a number of different companies, but ultimately became Wells Fargo and.
[00:05:10] Jennifer Fritzsche: So I left Wells Fargo right in the pandemic, July, 2020. And I really was sad to leave, but made the decision to leave because I was given a minority partner and niche position to be part of a spectrum fund. So a partner and I got together, we were backed by private equity and. A bunch of C-band spectrum.
[00:05:31] Jennifer Fritzsche: This is the spectrum that Verizon spent $50 billion on. We spent crumbs on the ground compared to that, but it was a lot of fun. And so we're holding that spectrum. And then during that time, I also took a few board seats. I sit on a few boards and I say that because once the auction was over, I wanted to get back to a real job.
[00:05:52] Jennifer Fritzsche: And really couldn't go back to equity research because of these boards. So a company called Greenhill found me. So I'm now a managing [00:06:00] director leading their com infrastructure services segment in north America. And we've been really busy in Europe over there. Greenhill is a purely M and a advisory firm.
[00:06:11] Jennifer Fritzsche: So we don't lend money. We're not, what's called the balance sheet bank. So I really like it because it brings me back to what I missed most. And that was talking to management. Strategizing. I have to say, don't miss, like writing. Or, you know, like, um, being on every earnings call, but Greenhill has allowed me to do some fun stuff, which I think we're going to talk about like my blog and whatnot.
[00:06:35] Jennifer Fritzsche: As I said that I really, I don't miss writing like earnings notes that they missed earnings by 2 cents instead of 3 cents or whatever. But I do, they allow me to do this, what I called Fritchie's forum, which was named after my old Sunday night piece that I used to put out as an analyst. And I really like it cause it's every other week I get to tackle a theme.
[00:06:56] Jennifer Fritzsche: The one I put out today should be published shortly. And it's [00:07:00] all about Jim Carey's Superbowl.
[00:07:02] Matt Trifiro: Oh, fascinating. That's that's completely unexpected as a topic. That's that's neat. How did you connect that to infrastructure or, or did you
[00:07:09] Jennifer Fritzsche: not? Oh, well, I don't use how the Superbowl, right. And it was the Verizon ad about the cable guy.
[00:07:15] Jennifer Fritzsche: And what's interesting about that is Verizon for the last five years has been talking about their wireless initiative for home broadband and it's like life it's. It stops and starts, but I thought that the commercial was very telling, because I remember once interviewing Ronan Dunn, actually for Verizon.
[00:07:35] Jennifer Fritzsche: And as we were preparing for the interview, I was like, what's all this millimeter wave stuff. And he basically said to me, Jennifer, it's going to be the uncoupling of cable. So it was really interesting to see that ad.
[00:07:46] Matt Trifiro: I see. I see. So. Millimeter wave. And what is the cabling of cable?
[00:07:52] Jennifer Fritzsche: So millimeter wave is the type of spectrum.
[00:07:55] Jennifer Fritzsche: That's high band, it's north of 20 gigahertz of spectrum. And what Verizon is [00:08:00] using with it, they've made several acquisitions, two of which were kind of head scratchers. And then they bought a number of a good amount as did ATMT of millimeter wave spectrum and various spectrum auctions, not, not the ones I was involved in and what they plan to do with that is essentially.
[00:08:17] Jennifer Fritzsche: Offer fixed wireless access, which they are seeing is competes with cable wired broadband. So if you think about it, Verizon has, I don't know the exact number, 110 million wireless subscribers where they've never been able to access broadband. For example, I'm in Chicago. So I'm a Verizon wireless customer have been.
[00:08:39] Jennifer Fritzsche: God knows how long, but my incoming cable are my wire line competitors here in Chicago or at and T or Comcast. So with Verizon, they can come to me with fixed wireless. They essentially can go outside their what's called franchise footprint in the north. To tap into, you know, a very high demographic wireless [00:09:00] customer.
[00:09:00] Jennifer Fritzsche: That's really
[00:09:01] Matt Trifiro: interesting. I hadn't realized that power of fixed wireless. So w we've ventured into, into a bunch of areas that I don't know that my listeners understand, or they maybe they've heard of and think they understand, but don't, but what, what is the.
[00:09:12] Jennifer Fritzsche: Territory. So franchise territory, if you go back to, I mean, we're going way back, but the breakup of at and T in 1984, full disclosure, I was in high school.
[00:09:20] Jennifer Fritzsche: Then I met my husband at an analyst, but the breakup of at and T broke up into many baby bells, baby bells were nine next bell Atlantic, put it up eventually quest U us west, which became quest all of these regional telco carriers, which had franchise footprints. So if you think of where you can get your home, Service in Verizon, it's in the Northeast footprint.
[00:09:44] Jennifer Fritzsche: You know, I think it's seven or eight states from Maine to Virginia. And that's
[00:09:48] Matt Trifiro: because when the bell was split up, that's what became Verizon that portion of the national
[00:09:53] Jennifer Fritzsche: network. That's right. Essentially went through many versions of it, like nine next bell Atlantic. I mean, I'm guessing your [00:10:00] listeners, aren't old enough to remember this, but it was a lot, so, yeah.
[00:10:05] Jennifer Fritzsche: And I lived in Chicago. Territory called Ameritech, which became part of at and T. So right now to my home, I only have two choices of broadband providers. I'm sitting in my home right now. I'm riding over the Comcast network to talk to you. But again, if a Ryzen comes to me with a wireless access that competes with current.
[00:10:27] Jennifer Fritzsche: Service. And I'm a loyal user to Verizon have been for 15 years. I know and appreciate the brand. It could be a very significant moment for Verizon. And that's why I wrote about the gym. Cable guy you had at the super bowl.
[00:10:44] Matt Trifiro: So, so fixed wide. So I w when we think of wireless technologies, we think of our cell phones and running around and all of that, and fixed wireless is using the same spectrum that my cell phone might use, but there's a antenna on my house from my roof.
[00:10:59] Matt Trifiro: And [00:11:00] instead of aiming up like a satellite dish, it's aiming horizontal, and there's another. Radio somewhere that's pushing signal to it. And in this case of millimeter wave, you're saying that that, that, that frequency, that spectrum is, is powerful enough to deliver a satisfying broadband experience. So
[00:11:18] Jennifer Fritzsche: everything you said was right, except the part that your phone uses millimeter wave spectrum.
[00:11:23] Jennifer Fritzsche: Cause it, it doesn't, it's not really mobile spectrum. So it has. It's spectrum specialized for just the delivery of wide bands of data. That would be for Broadway. If that makes sense. But I
[00:11:36] Matt Trifiro: also often hear millimeter we've talked about in a IOT scenario or a factory scenario, and sometimes those are going to be mobile robots and stuff.
[00:11:44] Matt Trifiro: So they're there for help me start that through. Yeah,
[00:11:48] Jennifer Fritzsche: yeah. For, for the consumer wireless, just because, well, I should, I should say. Thanks. So, but the, these phones mostly use don't have band classes to support millimeter wave [00:12:00] spectrum. So it might, it will support C-band two dot five, which is T-Mobile spectrum.
[00:12:06] Jennifer Fritzsche: It supports low band spectrum, but millimeter wave is really for either yeah. IOT where, where it's a fixed service, where they can follow it, but it wouldn't be following me through the grand canyon to
[00:12:18] Matt Trifiro: provide. Yeah. And it's in millimeter was understanding is particularly challenging because the high frequency.
[00:12:23] Matt Trifiro: Easily passed through trees or windows or doors or things like that. So you do have to have this like clear line of sight and maybe, and if it's moving some controlling of the radio to beam form at the thing, do you have fiber? Do you have available fiber available?
[00:12:38] Jennifer Fritzsche: And that's, what's even more, I mean, it's such an interesting time right now because like everyone, we all lived through the pandemic.
[00:12:44] Jennifer Fritzsche: So when, right now where I sit and I'm about 13 miles north of the city of Chicago. So I'm not in this. I have Comcast, as I mentioned, which offers about 300 megs to my home. And then at T and T, which offers maybe maybe 70. [00:13:00] So I have three teenagers, a husband, myself, all working from home. I mean, we couldn't even, we never worry T and T customers just because we always needed speed.
[00:13:09] Jennifer Fritzsche: And then you layer in a pandemic and it was just, I mean, it was a Comcast could have essentially told me what to pay and I would have to pay that because we were, that was our life. Now what's more interesting. I mentioned, I listened to your podcast walking my black lab. Now, when I walk my black lab through my neighborhood, I keep seeing these little signs, yard signs pop up, and those yard signs say 80 and T fiber coming in.
[00:13:34] Jennifer Fritzsche: That is really, really interesting because now the sleeping giant has woken up and they've woken up to the need for fiber. So you're having 18 T come to where I live with a fiber solution. We mentioned Verizon. So there's going to be competition here. And I think it's going to be the key question. All this is, what is cable do?
[00:13:55] Jennifer Fritzsche: What
[00:13:55] Matt Trifiro: do you think cable is going to do? That's what I want to know.
[00:13:58] Jennifer Fritzsche: I think cable's never asleep at the [00:14:00] wheel. I think cable is, and we'll have to initiate more of a fiber deep architecture. It becomes a question though, with Comcast, because Comcast is not just a cable company, they own NBC, they are doing peacock, they have theme parks.
[00:14:15] Jennifer Fritzsche: So there's a lot of pulls on their capital that at and T struggled with and made a decision to divorce from. Let's
[00:14:22] Matt Trifiro: shift away from sort of consumer applications. And let's talk about the infrastructure, which is the whole other side to this, which isn't the last mile delivery, but it's everything else.
[00:14:31] Matt Trifiro: So tell me how fiber plays a role in. The infrastructure. And what's interesting about what's going on today.
[00:14:40] Jennifer Fritzsche: Yeah. So fiber is really everything. Like I've often made the analogy when talking about wireless is like the cardiovascular analogy, which sounds weird. But if you think of fiber, it's really kind of the veins throughout your body.
[00:14:55] Jennifer Fritzsche: And then the capillaries at the end of that, those veins, I would say this is more for wireless are [00:15:00] kind of small cells and. Love affair with the towers is the beating heart without that hard, no one's walking around or anything. So you need towers, but fiber. I always say this wireless needs wires and full disclosure.
[00:15:15] Jennifer Fritzsche: I'm quoting the great Raila chance here from Zen five. But I think it is a very important quote because it just it's really the basis of every infrastructure you need. Data centers don't work without fiber related to them. Small cells don't work without fiber related to them tower. You need that backhaul and fronthaul piece, which is the fiber going up.
[00:15:36] Jennifer Fritzsche: So in order to carry all this traffic, that fiber is the critical veins in your body, carrying the blood around. So it's important importance really can't be overestimated. Does
[00:15:47] Matt Trifiro: that explain why? At least some of the tower companies have gone deep into a fiber equity?
[00:15:52] Jennifer Fritzsche: Yeah. I mean, I think that's a great question.
[00:15:54] Jennifer Fritzsche: I mean, you're seeing these blurring of the broadband infrastructure silo lines. [00:16:00] You have crown buying cyber. You have, Zale going to the largest owner of towers at a private side. Now public with digital bridge, you have certainly American towers purchase a core site going into the data center side. So I think that's beyond where these silos.
[00:16:18] Jennifer Fritzsche: Transitioning because there's multiple needs for multiple customers. So to have, and really. Product, what he's doing at digital bridge is the best example of it. I always say he has like his hands in multiple honey. Honeypots he has a small cell platform with Boingo and extant. He has a tower platform with vertical bridge.
[00:16:38] Jennifer Fritzsche: He has a fiber platform. Was there. On cologne with EQT. He has a data center platform with vantage, as well as DataBank and almost in it. I would argue DataBank has really his edge play. So there's multiple kinds of angles to that. So if you have a customer, let's just call it Microsoft saying, I need this.
[00:16:57] Jennifer Fritzsche: And digital bridge will be able to pivot and say, I have [00:17:00] this, I have this I, this. Why, where can I help you? It's harder when you only have one arrow in the.
[00:17:05] Matt Trifiro: Yeah. So what's really interesting is, and this is my simpleton brain, but I tend to think of a data center as something fundamentally different than a communication network.
[00:17:17] Matt Trifiro: And I would think the skills of running a data center may be very different than the skills of owning a tower. How do you square all that?
[00:17:25] Jennifer Fritzsche: They absolutely are. I mean, the tower is I think the best model ever made because it's such a passive infrastructure. And I always used to joke the only cost to the.
[00:17:36] Jennifer Fritzsche: Was paying the taxes and mow the lawn underneath because there's really no embedded cost, which is why they're what we call contribution margins or every incremental dollar of revenue. There's like a 90% fall through to the margin. It's unbelievable. So data centers, you flip the script completely. I mean, you.
[00:17:54] Jennifer Fritzsche: Probably your listeners have been in a data center. You think of like the, the finger point authentication at [00:18:00] five points, the people who guard it's a very active infrastructure, so you're right. It's very different. But yet Microsoft or Amazon or Verizon might need access to both. So you can at least have.
[00:18:15] Jennifer Fritzsche: You're in the room for multiple conversations. And I think that's what American tower thought with going toward core site. What is their edge? You know, can you carve some of these second tier markets of a core site and make them into an interesting edge play? Cause I think if they all sit still, well, this market continues to change that there's not a risk becoming irrelevant, but there's a risk to not, not being in the room for the conversation.
[00:18:40] Jennifer Fritzsche: As long as others, I guess, is how.
[00:18:43] Matt Trifiro: Well, speaking of Microsoft and an Amazon, that's particularly interesting because both of the announced different types of wireless strategy. So how does that work? Yeah,
[00:18:53] Jennifer Fritzsche: no right friend or foe, right? I mean, it's, it's really interesting to see how this all comes out during my [00:19:00] little break.
[00:19:00] Jennifer Fritzsche: When I was doing my fund, I was talking to, when I came back to Greenhill in this role, I was talking to a former CEO that I've known for a long time and he had his first quote. Was Jen, how does it feel to come back and see Microsoft as a competitor? And so it was interesting you meaning of the telco providers.
[00:19:18] Jennifer Fritzsche: I mean, when I was an analyst, there was the tech analyst. There was me, there was the cable analyst and we really were all separate silos when at T and T bought time Warner. The cable analyst. And I kind of did our thing together with joint notes, but really I was never writing about Microsoft. I mean, I did a little bit because the equity I followed aquaponics and digital reality, and obviously the cloud providers are.
[00:19:42] Jennifer Fritzsche: Customers of that group, but it's very interesting to see the likes of, especially, I'd say Microsoft talking about private 5g here and from an infrastructure standpoint, I think that's a good thing because there's more customers for the legs of American tower. Uh, [00:20:00] Zale certainly whoever the, all the infrastructure providers to tap into, but if you're Verizon or your at and T are you dancing with the devil?
[00:20:08] Jennifer Fritzsche: I can spend a whole lot more money from venue. I used to, when I was an analyst, I would get on these panels and say 80 and T spends more. Dollars in capital expenditures than any us company at, just after the government and right behind them as Verizon. And then I talk about tax reform and things like that.
[00:20:28] Jennifer Fritzsche: Well now, I mean, that's in no way true. I mean, I don't know the exact numbers, but Amazon spends more in a quarter than either of those companies do in a year. So it is, it is a different change. Now I will say on the wireless side and this plant putting on my spectrum hat. Those guys don't own spectrum.
[00:20:49] Jennifer Fritzsche: They can play in the unlicensed space and they've had a big win there. But if spectrum is a finite resource, They don't have it. And so I don't care how much money they have. [00:21:00] We've had spectrum auctions that I think every other future spectrum auction that's going to happen, maybe with the exception of what's called option went away, which is two dot five.
[00:21:10] Jennifer Fritzsche: Spectrum is going to have a shared component to it. So they're going to have a very tough time unless they buy a dish or buy an ATMT, which in this. Yeah. I don't know with Lena Khan, I'm not sure that's going to happen, but I think it's going to be hard. I mean, they really can't have a wireless presence without going through one of those gatekeepers who own the spectrum.
[00:21:32] Matt Trifiro: A couple of interesting things. So historically, if you look like let's say the last dozen years, maybe a little longer. The last mile access providers have tried to go into the data center business and the data center companies have tried to go into the last mile access business, Google fi, and so on, and arguably neither have been successful outside of their wheelhouse.
[00:21:54] Matt Trifiro: How do you explain that? And then what's different this time.
[00:21:57] Jennifer Fritzsche: So let me make sure I understand the question. So Google [00:22:00] fiber, I, I would argue as a win for Google and I'll tell you why Google fiber. Was not at all successful in Kansas city or things like that. But the classic example is Austin. Once Google fiber said they were going to go there, it was 31 minutes later, 31 minutes later that at and T put a press release out saying that we're going to wire, Austin with fiber.
[00:22:25] Jennifer Fritzsche: And so if Google's money or revenue is generated by. I'm clicking a whole lot faster when I have fiber to my house and I was with not dial dialogue, but 70 megs speeds. So by just putting that kind of red, no curtain in front of the bowl, a lot of fiber started coming and therefore we're all clicking faster, which is really Google's.
[00:22:51] Jennifer Fritzsche: Revenue model. Isn't
[00:22:53] Matt Trifiro: the strategy that I agree that it seems a Google was employing, there was to create some competitive pressure to increase [00:23:00] broadband access and capabilities so that they can generate more revenue by delivering new services and so on. But that doesn't mean that they running a successful.
[00:23:09] Matt Trifiro: Access network business. That just means they've got this toy that they can use strategically. But, so the question I was asking is when they've tried to go into this business, when the, when the wireless access providers and I'm overgeneralizing a little bit, but I was actually just writers have tr or the, any access prior, tried to go legitimately into the data center business.
[00:23:28] Matt Trifiro: And vice versa. I don't know that I can think of a very successful example. Can you no. I
[00:23:34] Jennifer Fritzsche: mean like, and you're talking E T and T is data center business, which they sold to evoke, which is now part of evoke. Right. And then Verizon clinics. Yeah, exactly. No, I would, I would agree. I mean, Verizon bought a company called Terra mark and it, but I think it just became.
[00:23:51] Jennifer Fritzsche: And this became out of their core, you know, and it kind of the same analogy could be made with a T and T going into the media business. I think they [00:24:00] got there and they realized, whoa, what am I good at? And I have, if I'm good at networks, I need to pay Verizon just paid $50 billion to get spectrum. I need to be more nimble with my capital.
[00:24:11] Jennifer Fritzsche: I can't be in Hollywood, New York, dealing with CNN and movie studios and buy spectrum at the same time. So I think. Kind of like towers too. It's like they knew are these assets in the right hands or they better can I, should I take my capital and shifted to where I need to go?
[00:24:30] Matt Trifiro: Yeah. So, so you mentioned earlier, the tower business is like just such, such a great business, right?
[00:24:35] Matt Trifiro: Because it's, it's passive, you buy your buyer, lease for the long-term lease Lang stand up a tower, which isn't that complicated. And everybody pays you to like occupy space and you can release that space many, many times. So one of the most powerful. Of the tower business in similar businesses. I think data center businesses are very similar is this concept of shared infrastructure.
[00:24:55] Matt Trifiro: So not only is it great for me because every incremental revenue source [00:25:00] is mostly margin. My martial cost is almost nothing, and I get all the revenue and she say 90%, 95% drops the bottom line. That's that's gosh, I that's the business I want. Right. It's like having a house that you can rent to 20 people and stick them all on the roof.
[00:25:14] Matt Trifiro: But the other benefit is presumably. That they may lose the tower. Companies may lose some pricing, leverage, meaning that now that my costs are lower, I might get squeezed more by the people leasing the space. And I guess my question here is part of the benefit of shared infrastructure, is it lowers everybody's cost?
[00:25:33] Jennifer Fritzsche: Yes. And John Stankey would make that argument to just to serve Jay brown and the tower conference. But the, the, again, the beauty of this model, Is the moat around it. So let's just play that scenario out. Let's say, I mean, I have a tower and I own it's Jennifer's tower company owns it. Let's say it's right near Greenwich avenue in Connecticut, or pick your pick, pick another nice affluent [00:26:00] city.
[00:26:00] Jennifer Fritzsche: So everyone's on it. I'm charging my fees and ATT doesn't like the. Pain. So they go to threaten to build another tower. Well, and then immediately I'm going to me. Jennifer's towers company is going to go to the Greenwich town hall and be like, I have space. I don't know why they want to ugly Greenwich avenue with another big ugly tower.
[00:26:25] Jennifer Fritzsche: When I have space and get the, I mean, the nimble effect, not in my backyard. Really these high affluent areas can't be overestimated. I mean, you can always build a tower next to another tower. We used to call them tower slums in parts of rural areas where there's no. But in the high rent districts, or even just where people want their phone to work, it's very hard to build another tower right next to it.
[00:26:53] Jennifer Fritzsche: And so you argue that I would argue the tower companies in that case, have the leverage, not [00:27:00] the carriers. Does
[00:27:01] Matt Trifiro: that change with small cells?
[00:27:03] Jennifer Fritzsche: Does that change with small cells, small cells. I mean, we can get on a small cell conversation. There's a need for a ton more, but they're not as good a business. And even crown, I think would tell you this as the tower business, because it is more of an active infrastructure you're dealing with building owners, you're dealing with cities, you're dealing with municipalities, you're dealing with fiber operators.
[00:27:24] Jennifer Fritzsche: You're really running kind of a mini network. So it is. The mode is there, but not as much. I think like for example, New York city has something like seven franchises. So if you have one of those franchises, you can build in that area, but it, there are seven players, so it's, it's harder and I'm not sure don't quote me on the seven, but there's a numb, maybe five to seven, but you get what I'm saying?
[00:27:50] Jennifer Fritzsche: Yes. It's a very,
[00:27:50] Matt Trifiro: very different, very different business. That that's really interesting. I mean, the show is nominal. Edge computing and the future of the internet. So let's talk a little bit about that. I'm not going to ask you to define edge computing [00:28:00] because actually I'm starting to not use the word anymore.
[00:28:02] Matt Trifiro: Believe it or not. Cause all it's all just the internet. Yeah. Yeah. That's I mean, I mean, I asked, I asked an analyst the other day, what's the difference between. Computers on premises and edge computing. And he's like for a lot of use cases, it's exactly the same thing. It's just, it's a marketing thing. And maybe the control plane extends back to the GUI interface that a cloud provider offers, which you know, is not trivial, but it's interesting.
[00:28:25] Matt Trifiro: So, so when you think of edge computing as an advisor or an analyst, how, how do you fit that into the whole equation? What's the value? Where's it coming from? What do you.
[00:28:35] Jennifer Fritzsche: Well, I mean, I, I guess I would say, where are the dollars flowing just to prepare for this podcast? I was just kind of looking at it.
[00:28:42] Jennifer Fritzsche: Colby sold report on edge from Cowan who does great work and his estimates are 10 billion has spent been spent on the edge. Like I got to look to my notes and this year 20 or last year 2021, and that's growing to 116 billion by 2028. So a caker as we love. And while. [00:29:00] Uh, 42%. And so where the dollars are flowing is the edge.
[00:29:05] Jennifer Fritzsche: Now, what is, what is the edge? Is it at the base of a tower? Is it as a mini Microsoft data center? Is it the car itself, you know, is the edge of a smart car go to Detroit to talk about that? I think that's right. So I don't know how you define the yet. I would agree, but I, for me, it's a banker. It's where those dollars are flowing and I want to be able to capture some of those dollars in a way.
[00:29:28] Jennifer Fritzsche: That's actually
[00:29:28] Matt Trifiro: a very interesting lens to look through, which is we're building data centers, for example, where data centers have never been built before, right. Where you might have built a street side cabinet to hold a base. Now you've got a rack of servers or two racks of servers or 10 racks of servers with GPU's and all these things that start to look like something that Microsoft, Amazon would have in some giant facility in the middle of nowhere.
[00:29:52] Matt Trifiro: And right. That's interesting that where the, where the capital is flowing, that's fascinating. And there's another aspect to edge computing that I imagine is [00:30:00] particularly interesting to the work you do, which is. One of the most powerful use cases is actually running the network itself because you've got an event network, virtualized functions you've got, I mean, you need edge computing in order to run a virtualized network.
[00:30:16] Jennifer Fritzsche: Yes, absolutely. Yeah,
[00:30:19] Matt Trifiro: and I, and I think that's something that's largely been lost when people are thinking about edge computing. You talk about autonomous vehicles and cloud robotics and all these really neat applications, the metaverse and so on. And yet there's this really prosaic in need for edge computing, which won't have the same economics as, as the tower industry.
[00:30:40] Matt Trifiro: But if you've already got to put a computer out. The field or a rack and you got to have get a cool it and it's running the network and it has to be there to run the network. Right. What else could you put in that space? Imagine the, the cloud robotics example. So that's me running an application and maybe I'm a different [00:31:00] provider.
[00:31:00] Matt Trifiro: Maybe I'm a wireless carrier and I'm running some application on, on the compute. That's out on the edge or maybe I'm Amazon or Microsoft. And I'm running my own applications where I'm running somebody else's applications for them. Where are you seeing the dollars flow from a software perspective? How is that software investment getting deployed out, out into the field from your perspective?
[00:31:19] Jennifer Fritzsche: I don't know if I could really comment on that because I'm not in the software world. I think what vapor's doing is really interesting, but I, and I think that that software has to be like, I don't think there's frankly, my view is I don't think there's this appreciation as much appreciation as there should be for that software element.
[00:31:38] Jennifer Fritzsche: But I think in my world, it's like, people are saying, yeah, you can have these cool trains running. All these different things, but the tracks need to be enabled to even enable the trains to run it. And so like, think of like three cable providers together, why aren't they taking advantage of their network in ways beyond [00:32:00] offering broadband to my service or like my home?
[00:32:03] Jennifer Fritzsche: Like, they're the. At T and T has more rails than anyone. I think lumens has very interesting rails that people should be paying attention to. Because again, this software side, I'm probably not the expert on, but that can't be enabled unless you have. True infrastructure running to it to enable all the magical things that software can do.
[00:32:27] Matt Trifiro: Yeah. And I think it's interesting that you live in this world where like things have physical qualities, right? I mean, so, so I mean, my, I came into this fractured business from the cloud and so I was just. Surprised and dumbfounded, but data centers have moving parts. Cloud doesn't have any moving parts.
[00:32:43] Matt Trifiro: Well, no, it's got lots of the fans and air conditioners and all these things. And so, yes, you're making a really great. Powerful point, which is there's a lot of like, can we say infrastructure there's there's at least in my world is tendency to, to, to think [00:33:00] of software as being part of the infrastructure.
[00:33:01] Matt Trifiro: But there's a very, very real part of it, which is like somebody has to trench the highway. Somebody has to put the physical glass underneath the ground and someone has to erect a tower and hang radios on it. And someone has to build the building in which all these servers operate and all of that. And then.
[00:33:20] Matt Trifiro: That you, you almost get a, you write a really profound view when you start from that perspective. Okay. Well, where's the money flowing and can I trace the path from an Amazon data center in Seattle all the way to some factory and what does it have to pass through and how fast can it go and how much bandwidth and how many different hands have to touch it?
[00:33:41] Matt Trifiro: And can I optimize my application if all those hands need to touch it? And then as you said, These people that own these plants, the Comcast and the Verizons of the world. Like they must be looking at saying, well, what's the marginal cost to me to add a new service to an infrastructure that I already own and spectrum I've already paid for.
[00:33:59] Jennifer Fritzsche: Right. [00:34:00] Right. And I think that. Like what you said about the trenching is really important because it's simple, but it's not easy, right? I mean like the biggest cost to fiber, the fiber itself is just glass. I mean, that's really not expensive. There's supply chain, et cetera. But the trenching of the fiber is it's very hard.
[00:34:22] Jennifer Fritzsche: I mean, it's finding labor in a period of labor shortage, fighting inflation, getting permits, digging the trenches, dealing with. Grounds in Minnesota, in February. It's simple. It's not easy,
[00:34:35] Matt Trifiro: I guess. Right. And once you have that, your job is to figure out how do we get as many people paying for it simultaneously, how many radio companies can.
[00:34:44] Matt Trifiro: Okay. So you mentioned early on the C-band auction that you were part of, which is just a. It must've been a fascinating nine. I said, my nine months didn't you have to come out of this sort of analyst space and, you know, be a senior executive at this fund to, to, to buy all the [00:35:00] spectrum. How does, how does unlicensed spectrum and CBRS and the priority access licenses that I hear about, how does all that fit into from your view?
[00:35:08] Matt Trifiro: How does it fit into the.
[00:35:10] Jennifer Fritzsche: Sure. I mean, so for CBN, it was exclusively on spectrum, no sharing component. We're clearing it from the satellites and be able to use that spectrum. So there's a lot with what's called the clearing house, but unlicensed spectrum and things like what federated is doing is really, really quite interesting.
[00:35:28] Jennifer Fritzsche: This brings in the topic of private networks. CBRS spectrum is, was the auction that happened before C-band it was much lower prices because it was more. Well, it was a shared element to it and cable. That was, I think, cables wireless plays through CBRS, and then you have others there too. So unlicensed spectrum is.
[00:35:52] Jennifer Fritzsche: What the cloud service providers are going to use. There was a big win where that from the FCC, where they got, I think it was about 1200 [00:36:00] megahertz of dedicated unlicensed spectrum. So they have a lot to play with. And this brings in the discussion of private networks, being able to use that most of that is going to run off of unlicensed spectrum.
[00:36:12] Jennifer Fritzsche: Whereas the winners in the C band were the ones who were. They want the spectrum. They'd bear hug it and they are willing to pay for it, obviously the largest bidders. And now we're the three main providers as well as.
[00:36:23] Matt Trifiro: And so you mentioned private wireless. What is that and how does that fit into all of
[00:36:27] Jennifer Fritzsche: this?
[00:36:28] Jennifer Fritzsche: Well, I think that private wireless is, as you think about enterprises and what they want to do, and this is private networks, like think of, I was just at a conference where they were talking about. Tesla's private network and some of their warehouses. I mean, this, this is one of many examples, like in my top 10 themes piece in my blog, my quote on private networks is where at the base of the hockey stick, I'm married to a hockey player and my son plays so I don't play, but I think that you're really begin to going to begin to see the [00:37:00] growth here.
[00:37:00] Jennifer Fritzsche: And that is the deployment of enterprises wanting to get. Like a walled garden, really around some of their own enterprise that they don't have to rely solely on like the likes of at T and T Verizon, but keep the networks as the name would imply private well.
[00:37:17] Matt Trifiro: And interestingly, from what I could tell the ATTs and the Verizons want to offer private network services.
[00:37:23] Matt Trifiro: So how does that dynamic shaping up, I mean, who who's going to go into this business and how.
[00:37:28] Jennifer Fritzsche: So who has the touch point most with enterprise? I mean, at and T is right there. So I think that, you know, and so is Microsoft. So, but they're partners, right? I mean, they're partnering together in certain initiatives, dish and AWS are partnering together.
[00:37:43] Jennifer Fritzsche: Dish recently made an announcement about private networks, but again, I go back to what I said earlier, friend or foe, you know, you want to be. Close to what is it be closer to your enemies, then your friend, keep your enemies close. Be a little bit of what we're seeing friends close your enemies closer.
[00:37:59] Jennifer Fritzsche: That's right. [00:38:00] So,
[00:38:01] Matt Trifiro: so what would you do if you were a traditional carrier with this core business and your own, all the spectrum, and you probably own a lot of fiber and you know, you see, you mentioned earlier, it's really important to figure out like how you have finite capital. Like where, where would you spend it?
[00:38:16] Matt Trifiro: I
[00:38:16] Jennifer Fritzsche: mean, I think at and T is doing the right thing. I think at T and T had a moment where they said I'm going to be in Hollywood and there's a need to be horizontally integrated. I think they realized wrong path control alt delete moment and reverted. I mean, I think what at T and T is very, very good at is running networks and why go somewhere else when you're not focusing enough on what you're good at.
[00:38:41] Jennifer Fritzsche: And so I think. John Stankey, you know, like them or hate them. I think he, he made the right decision be as painful as it was. So I think what I would do, if I was the carriers is kind of do exactly what they're doing. I would say, I need to buy spectrum. It's pay to play. I bought it now I got to [00:39:00] deploy it.
[00:39:00] Jennifer Fritzsche: And now, because the traditional wireless model is 120% penetration. And why. Right now in the U S so you have to pivot to new different areas of growth, private networks, IOT, and, you know, things like that that can really drive and really enterprises that, and the touch point to enterprise is what both of them have.
[00:39:23] Jennifer Fritzsche: I would say, especially to.
[00:39:25] Matt Trifiro: So Jennifer, the comment you made about what business are you in? What should you focus on seeing somewhat in contrast to the discussion we were having earlier, where all these companies are going into different businesses. So, you know, the Microsoft's and Amazon's delivering.
[00:39:41] Matt Trifiro: Some wireless services, maybe all wireless services, maybe purchasing a, a last mile access network. How do you rationalize? Like which strategy is the best is to recognize that look as a cloud computing company, I need to control my own destiny. And so I'm going to go all the way into last mile network.
[00:39:59] Matt Trifiro: And [00:40:00] if I can't get everybody else to deliver the last mile access in a way that helps me make more money, more clicks. And so on that, I'm just going to do it myself versus. That's just crazy. Talk to, try to go into that last mile access business, because as you said, are you as good as running a network is at T and T.
[00:40:17] Matt Trifiro: So where would you bet?
[00:40:19] Jennifer Fritzsche: So if I, I guess the question is which lens am I talking from? My in Redmond? Am I talking from Seattle that lens or. In Dallas or New Jersey talking from the T and T or Verizon lens. I think let's
[00:40:32] Matt Trifiro: look at both. Let's talk through both
[00:40:33] Jennifer Fritzsche: lenses. So if I'm the cloud providers, I mean, I might disagree with one thing you said where I'm going to do it alone because I don't think you'd see Cyrus one or QTS be taken out by, you know, private, large private equity now.
[00:40:48] Jennifer Fritzsche: If there was no room to grow with cloud. So they're certainly using third-party data centers to help. I mean, I think it's because demand has been way above their expectations. So there was [00:41:00] always the rest. Why, why would I own QTS when Microsoft can build a data center right next to, they
[00:41:05] Matt Trifiro: own a tower. If crown castle American tower will
[00:41:09] Jennifer Fritzsche: do it for me.
[00:41:09] Jennifer Fritzsche: Right, right, right. Exactly. So I, but I think that it's, I think third-party data centers are a little different just because the demand has been so hard to keep up with. So, I mean, when I was following data centers, 15 was a big order number. Now it's like 80 or so megawatts. So you're, I mean, it's gone up.
[00:41:28] Jennifer Fritzsche: Whatever four times and two years. But I think if I'm Microsoft or Amazon or whatnot, I am thinking because they're not really, I mean, their, their main business is still their main business. The cloud clearly is the important part of
[00:41:48] Jennifer Fritzsche: Right, right. I don't know. I mean, I remember when Amazon was bookseller, so, I mean, obviously
[00:41:54] Matt Trifiro: they're very few companies in history. Have been so successful in running such [00:42:00] diverse businesses. So Amazon may be a rightful unicorn,
[00:42:04] Jennifer Fritzsche: but I think with Jessie now, and the helm that shows you where having him come from the AWS background, that's where I think their, their focus is.
[00:42:13] Jennifer Fritzsche: But how, how it plays in wireless is I think an open question. I mean, I don't see Amazon wanting to cover. Be the next Verizon wireless, where I'm going into consumer to fix my phone or get a phone for my 15 year old. I mean, it just don't see that, but
[00:42:32] Matt Trifiro: it was on how stores they tried to have it. They tried to launch a phone.
[00:42:36] Matt Trifiro: They've got Kindle devices,
[00:42:38] Jennifer Fritzsche: but I just don't see that they don't. So, okay. Do they buy dish and maybe work with him possibly, but dish doesn't have anywhere near the spectrum on the mid band side is now Verizon does or ATT. So, I mean, there, there is that again, wild garden where Spectrum's really [00:43:00] important and they can have all the money in the world, but because they chose to sit down during two big spectrum auctions, that just happened that that's telling you.
[00:43:10] Jennifer Fritzsche: Why do you
[00:43:10] Matt Trifiro: think spectrum hasn't gone the way of towers and shared, shared
[00:43:14] Jennifer Fritzsche: infrastructure? Great. That's a great question. You know, I'm interviewing her again in a few weeks and I actually, that is such a good question. I'm going to add that to the list. Cause I think that is important because you, you do have these spectrum plays where there could be a shared component to it.
[00:43:31] Jennifer Fritzsche: I think there is room for that. I mean, why you haven't seen it so far? The answer is Verizon and at, and T don't want to enable competition to come to them.
[00:43:41] Matt Trifiro: I get to do, I can get a cell from, from Comcast and believe as a consumer that I'm on the Comcast global network, but I'm using shared infrastructure,
[00:43:52] Jennifer Fritzsche: you know?
[00:43:53] Jennifer Fritzsche: Well, you're using it, but you're paying for it, right? You're yeah, it's an MV and L relationship, but [00:44:00] conversation coming back to where we started. Now you have Verizon coming right in their backyard, the Jim Carrey yet. So what does that mean? If you're Comcast, you're saying, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now my partner that I'm is coming right into my backyard and trying to attack my main cashflow source.
[00:44:22] Jennifer Fritzsche: I think that's a partnership you really got to watch. I mean, did it again, you know, it's like, do we lack elbows or do we totally separate? I think.
[00:44:32] Matt Trifiro: It certainly seems. And I'm surprised that the FCC didn't didn't realize this, that. It might be better. I mean, see maybe CBRS is the big experiment, right.
[00:44:42] Matt Trifiro: Which is, which is, you know, can a lot of different entities use the same spectrum and share it effectively for a wide set of use cases. Cause that, that may actually show that we could do it in other parts of the spectrum. And maybe it should be readjusted based on that. So Jennifer, you wrote a post on like the [00:45:00] top 10 trends that you're seeing in this year and going forward, like pick a few highlights, tell us the trends that you see from your perspective that
[00:45:09] Jennifer Fritzsche: are important.
[00:45:09] Jennifer Fritzsche: Sure. I think private networks, I think that is a huge growth company. I think in building wireless is a really interesting area that we probably haven't talked about enough. It kind of works with private networks, but it's almost becoming its own separate silo of broadband infrastructure.
[00:45:27] Matt Trifiro: Can you define those?
[00:45:30] Jennifer Fritzsche: Yeah. Just think of like your typical office building, building fiber or a wireless network to support. Wireless connectivity inside the building. A lot of the spectrum auction suggest are the two spectrum options should just happened that auctioned off mid band spectrum. The benefit of that spectrum is it's great.
[00:45:49] Jennifer Fritzsche: It's the basis for 5g, but think of it. It's been described him to me as coming to a building. It acts more like a mirror versus a window, so it [00:46:00] bounces off. So therefore you have to build from the inside out and that's, that's important. I think. I think companies are trying to find ways to scale
[00:46:08] Matt Trifiro: that who's doing the most
[00:46:10] Jennifer Fritzsche: interesting work there Ganzi with extranet is doing very interesting work.
[00:46:14] Jennifer Fritzsche: Boingo is another one. Crown is doing that as well, but then, then it falls way off. So you need, like, I think another scalable platform will emerge there. I think the other thing is we've talked about. Infrastructure sharing. One of the trends that has been very popular in Europe and has been nascent here is the idea of open access networks.
[00:46:37] Jennifer Fritzsche: We were worked on a deal where we got a lot of money, about 500 million for a company called CII networks, which is truly an open access network. So they try to anchor some ISP to share off that network. And so. That side of it. I think fiber to the home, I just came up back from Metro connect. Unlike the name of the conference would apply.
[00:46:58] Jennifer Fritzsche: It was not at all about Metro. [00:47:00] It was all about fiber to the home. I think that's interesting because everyone's walking around with a PowerPoint saying they're going to get to 40% penetration. Again, it's simple, not easy. So I think there, you got to remember that, and I think that this is going to be the year of a lot of wireless infrastructure build.
[00:47:18] Jennifer Fritzsche: I mean, we've had these two massive spectrum auctions that spectrum is worth a hill of beans unless it's built out and macro towers will continue to be great. But now the pendulum's going to swing back to small cell. Whenever Dick can said like the, the death of his small cells has been over-exaggerated now it's the time you really are going to have to have densification to support this.
[00:47:42] Matt Trifiro: Yeah. That's the first thing D Jennifer, this has been an amazing conversation. I clearly we could go a couple more hours if we had the time before we go, can, uh, help the listeners understand how to find your blogging, your interviews and all those.
[00:47:58] Jennifer Fritzsche: Yup. Yup. So I do [00:48:00] some work and it's just fun work where digital infrastructure, investor.com.
[00:48:04] Jennifer Fritzsche: It's a platform run by Ian Gillan. Who's a great wireless quite a bit. Yeah. And so he lets me write on the blog called Fritzsche forums and we also do some interviews impact, man. I might switch, switch seats with you one day and I get to interview you and put you up and do it. Yeah. Yeah. So it'd be great.
[00:48:23] Jennifer Fritzsche: So that's yeah. Digital infrastructure.
[00:48:26] Matt Trifiro: Awesome. And if people want to find you online, what's the best way to
[00:48:29] Jennifer Fritzsche: mommy? I don't do Twitter. I mean, I don't know I should, but I'm LinkedIn. I definitely try to keep and nurture that LinkedIn profile. Love LinkedIn.
[00:48:37] Matt Trifiro: Yeah, that's great. All of these links and all this great stuff will be in the show notes, courage you to re read Jennifer's blog.
[00:48:46] Matt Trifiro: It's really insightful. And Jennifer, thank you very much for joining us on over
the
[00:48:50] Jennifer Fritzsche: edge. Thank you so much for having that does it for this
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